Thursday, July 29, 2010

Anglo-Saxon Runes: Ingwaz moves. Widing: Meanings - Joy on an icy day. Hero! Or: Woods. Despair. Gift! Mix and Match.

The Ingwaz. 
Runes: Norse, Saxon and Anglo-Saxon Connections.
Found, perhaps: Confirmation of a Family Tale.
Rune forms for WIDING 

From Futhark to Futhork

I.  Summary:

Tale.  Roots in Runes. We may have found, after all this, at least a speculative bit of confirmation in old runic forms, letter symbols, of an old family story: someone was on a hunt with the King, and saved the King when the King was attacked by a bear.  Just in time! Your name will be Widing, supposedly said our grateful royal.

Problems. Now, how do you prove any of that.  First, we speculate and pass the story around each Thanksgiving with toasts.  Second, we follow any lead we find.  Third, we let something percolate, and it did.

Recourse. We looked at the charts of Old Futhark Runes (earliest Old Norse); then found connections between Saxon runes (some of them invaded Jolly Olde Englande in the 400's, the rest stayed in northern Germany to fight against Charlemagne 500 years later, and got resettled and beaten, finally) and the Norse Runes.  The Old Futhark had an "ng" or "ing" cluster that disappeared in later Younger Futhark; but the ng or ing is found in the Anglo-Saxon runes.  So we followed that.

Eureka! We found a chart of the meanings of the Anglo-Saxon rune forms, not just the name of the letter and its pronunciation.  And WIDING - adds up to any of these, WID as a totality=Wood (perhaps as in Saxon King Widukind, 9th C?); or put the letters separately, and get Joy Ice Day.  Then go to ING.  As a totality, it means hero, one who surpasses. References to a god, relationship with a king (there is a Swedish King Inge 11th C).  Put the letters separately, and you get either N for despair, distress, need; and G for gift.

Joy on an icy day. Hero!  
Or, In the woods, distress and need; Gift!

The story fits either way - an event for being grateful, a hero, a gift. Or fun to consider.

II.  Details.

In the oldest written letter forms for the Norse, Elder Futhark, there is an "ng" form, the "ingwaz". See Widing surname in Runes.  The hobby interest, as well as academic, leads to real or imagined ancestry, geneology, for those with The Name.

Figure 1

Figure 2

ADD ANGLO-SAXON RUNES, THE FUTHORK, and find meanings for each symbol.

Now we find that, in addition to the Elder Futhark forms and the Younger Futhark forms, in between comes the Anglo-Saxon Runes, called the Futhork, see :// That site shows charts and simple explanations.

Wikipedia is only a starting point for anything: a guide. We went from there to the details at :// But that gave so much information that we went back to the simple chart at Wikipedia.  On we go.  See runestones at ://

That is interesting, because in the later form of Norse Futhark, Younger Futhark, there is no longer an ng.  There are other differences, with combined letters and forms.  The missing NG is not the only one. Where did the nice ingwaz go?

But there does appear an Ing in Saxon, carrying over to the Anglo-Saxon.


What is the ng. It is known as the "ingwaz".   That was not the main topic in the Runes post here, but looks interesting. See overview of this rune with its disputed origins at ://  That site also explains more about the Futhark rune designations, in which the NG appears.

The ING is a masculine form from Germanic and Norse mythology, and the old Germanic Ingwaz could mean "he who is foremost". Ing: also a Norse and Germanic fertility god, Yngvi Freyr, see  Fertility, but also agriculture, weather, see ://

In Saxon runes:  the ING means "hero." 

That fits "he who is foremost." See the big chart at ://  The ingwaz ING has a different shape, however, in the Anglo-Saxon Rune chart.  It is one symbol made of two X's on top of each other, double X standing up, like on shoulders. 

Now we are getting somewhere.  See Anglo-Saxon runes at :// complete with charts, transliterations and meanings of the specific forms.  Yes - ing as hero.  Just like we tell ourselves at Thanksgiving.

Follow the naming of the all the runes here in Widing, using the Anglo-Saxon word meanings for each letter form:

W - That is the pointy P shape.  It is called "wynn" and means "joy" 

I   - That is the straight line we are familiar with.  It is called "is" and means "ice"

D  - That is the sideways pointy hourglass, on its side. It is called "daeg" and means "day."

I and the
NG - Those together comprise the ingwaz.  It is called  "ing" and means "hero"

Here are the Anglo-Saxon Runes - The Futhork - for Widing, we hope

Figure 3.

So:  Joy on an icy day - Hero!

That is simplistic, given all the detail and philosophy at the rune sites for Experts; but the point of similarity to story is there.

What if we take out the Ing, as one symbol, and substitute the two forms - one for N and one for G

N - An n on its own is a straight line with a diagonal cross bar tilting upper left to lower right, as in the Elder Futhark.  It is called "nyd" and means "need, distress".

G - A g on its own is an X shape, and called "gyfu".  It means "gift"

Figure 4

So:  Joy on an icy day - Distress.  Gift!

Get fancy.  If we take the Wid and apply to its root the woods or forest or tree idea, with forest-dwellers specifically mentioned in the Magnus the Barefoot saga where Inge etc., that fits as well.  A woodsy fellow as the WID, not the separate joy icy day.

Woodsy fellow Hero.

Or referring to King Wid-ukind, a Saxon.

Maybe that's as fur as we kin go.  You'd think the clan I married into would be pleased and interested in all this about finding out who they are, but so far, I am the only enthusiast. Wait until Thanksgiving this year. 

Splendid. The name Widing is a story in its own letter forms. Add the other meanings of the ING, friend of ___, choose your King - Swedish King Inge, Saxon King Widukind, does it matter? We have ourselves a hero.

FN 1.  Recheck use of the word elements as first names or surnames.

  • ING  Here is ING:  at ://  This source says that the Norse NG is the same as the Germanic INGWAZ - clearly close connections over time between the Norse and the Germanics, including Saxons.  The root means "progenitor, ancestor, leader."  See Nordicnames.  There are many variations on it, including Inge, the name of the Swedish King we were and are interested in.  You can see the countries where a variation of the Ing appears.

Ing and its variations does not appear as a mythological name, in the list at ://  But at this site it does:  Inge as a Norse fertility god, at ://

Ing also does not appear as a "patronymic" where a culture appends a word for son of or daughter of to a name.  Same site, different page, at ://

  • WID.  Links to Wid? --First names:  Only one w in Swedish, Wido (Germanic variant is Wito?), no derivation given.  
But there are lots of V's.  Closest may be Vidar (recent - say 1800's, not an old name; but look at this site: :// where Vidar may derive from Vid, forest, and ar, warrior, forest warrior.  That fits our story), Vide (more of these, see, Vida.

Names containing Wid.

More on Vithar and Vitthar (with 2 r's, son of Odin) - also forest warrior - in Norse at ://  Perhaps the bestowed name kept the first part, the forest, and changed the "warrior" to the Ing for friend of Inge, or hero.

Here, Vidar is the forest warrior but also a son of Odin, at :// He will avenge his father's death at the end of the world, that site saying that the roots of Vidar ar unclear, but we have found connections elsewhere to forest warrior, see ://

More: Find more on Frey, Odin, Runes discussion, Vidarr and the Wild Hunt:  see The Norse Gods at :// 
  • Link to god FREYR.
Look up YNGVI, a form of the ingwaz (the older theonym "Ing") and may be an older form of the name of the god, Freyr. See ://  Always vet Wikipedia, but this is a sane starting point in a confusing area.

Yngvi:  old Norse cognate (?) of Ing, and an alternate for the name of the god, Freyr.  This site says that Yngvi-Freyr was seen as the ancestor of the Swedish royal family.  There. Royalty. See ://

Old Norse Yngvi or Yngvin can mean "worshiper or friend of Ing" -- does that bring us back to the fellow who saved King Inge as then being bestowed with a name that meant he was thereafter a friend of Inge? 

That theonym Ing (says the site) is Proto-Germanic from Inguz. In Old Norse, look for it in stories like Ingvifreyr, or Ingunafreyr.  Have to look those up.

Yngve, then Yngvin - combination of the Yng meaning a Norse god, and the Vin, meaning "win" or friend. See :// 

  • YNGLING - the name of a dynasty, very old, in Scandinavia, see ://  Yngling:  descendant of Frey (god), see ://
All this just for recreation, as well as history.  Widing ancestry, Widing geneology. More important is the process and learning history.

III.  Next.

We have no family stories about another family Viking, Skarf, of the Burnt Njall Saga, Iceland, but looking up those Runes in the Old Norse is next.  It would not be Ango-Saxon, however,  We will start with the Elder Futhark and go see what Iceland did. Maybe the bones of a story emerge; or maybe we'll just make one up.

    Tuesday, July 27, 2010

    Surname, Widing - Wid. Did a "Wid" of Saxon Origin Have Legs? Become Part of Anglo-Saxon?

    What's with the Wid word-root.
    Looking for Saxon as well as Norse Origin.

    Widing- Widingh (new variation)

    The Widinga Saga

    I.  Did the segment Wid travel with the Saxon Invaders into England, and become part of Anglo Saxon, Old English?

    II.  Did the Wid travel with the Saxons in their Diaspora, Resettlements, into other parts of Germany, Scandinavia 

    Meet Johannes Widingh, 1376 Will, Hamburg -is the H for Hof or Farm?
    And Sven Widingh, Sweden 1700's - farm
    And Olaf Widing,  Sweden 1800's - farm

    Looking for the Wid. Whither the Wid.

    I.  Did the Wid travel with the Saxon Invaders into England,
    And Become part of Anglo Saxon, Old English?

    "Wid" as a word root, in the surname Widing, is Norse according to some sources; but the Norse and the Saxons dealt and lived extensively among each other.  Finding the meaning of wid in its migration from Norse-Saxon broad category, to Anglo-Saxon. has to be the last of the possibilities, or is it? Norse and Germanic. Two groups, but with similarities.

    Germanics and Norse on the move. Here we look at linguistics, in the group of Saxons who remained on the mainland of Europe (see Saxon King Widukind. He fought Charlemagne in the 900's.

    Then look at those linguistics among the group of Saxons who earlier raided and finally invaded the British Isles in about 410 AD, see ://  They became the Anglo Saxons by doing the happy dance with the Angles who arrived about 430 with the Jutes and each took over different areas of England.

    There was an affinity. The Angles were also Germanic, and came from southeastern Jutland, now Denmark; and the Jutes also came from Jutland. Note that the Saxons were already there in England, and had an inroad well ahead of time - before their big invasion period - as mercenaries for the Romans.

    The Norse Vikings arrived and raided beginning in about 793 AD. Run! There were periods of peace and war, then the Danes conquered England in 1000 or so. Etc. See the History UK site. Languages. Norse. Germanic Angle and Saxon. A bloody free-for-all.

    Maps of migrations, invasions. Words follow.

    So:  Anglo-Saxons.  What of the Wid did they bring with them, that became Old English, old Anglo-Saxon English. Can Beowulf help, as a Norse tale (Danish) recorded in Jolly Olde Englande?  Some originate the Geats, the tribe of Beowulf, in southern Sweden, but much of southern Sweden was ruled by Danes for many centuries.  See

    Look at the Saxon connection, thinking of Widukind the Saxon King, and his dealings and his living with the Norse, the Danes; and his people moving into those areas, or being relocated by Charlemagne as entire population groups.
    • Spells. Incantations. 
      • The Wid also appears in Anglo-Saxon charms, Old English, a site with modern translation of these charms for healing and warding off evil at ://  We need the Old Norse, however, to get beyond "wid gedrif" and "wid poccas" and another wid that is unreachable because it is a paid site and it stops mid-phrase. The search paragraph that stops refers to an Old Norse Runic charm book, at://  We do see that gedrif means to drive, in past participle in an Old English grammar text - what? See ://
    • Wide. The Wid in Anglo-Saxon is an adjective meaning wide, or "of a certain width". See the Bosworth-Toller Anglo Saxon Dictionary at :// look up "wid" as part of other words at the home search page, ://; and find reference to far and wide, broadly, widely known, "wide-feorh" and similars for long life.

    • Swedish records. The Saxon connection to the Norse appears in several ways,  Stockholm has Anglo Saxon manuscripts, and microfiche, and where did they come from, if not the Danes or northern German:  
      • Boundaries were fluid. Swedish-linguistic folk moved about
      • The location of documents is not conclusive.  It could be incidental - just the usual scholarship and storage unrelated to origin. Other cities also have Anglo Saxon materials, see 
      • How to vet sites for self-serving, finding connections desired rather than actual, see  Is it reliable or justifying claimed roots?
    • Old English Anglo Saxon language Beowulf, with Beowulf as Danish [or the Swedish side of Danish rule]. 
      • The Saxon connection to the Norse also appears in the travels of the Norse Beowulf (see electronic Beowulf at :// that ended up in Anglo Saxon England and was recorded there (is that so?). There appear to be connections between mainland Norse-types and Saxons and those Saxons who became the Anglo-Saxons in the British Isles. More Beowulves: in hypertext, at ://; and   
      • Beowulf the Geat.  Could that be a group that migrated from Thracia, known as the Getae, see Sigge Fridulfsson's lore.  Books are dedicated to finding such origins, see sample at Taylor and Frances Online at
    •  A real linguistic analysis of Beowulf for purposes of tying in Old Norse, and mainland Saxon, and British Isles, Anglo-Saxon is beyond us here. It is a Norse tale, recorded in Ye Olde Englande. You do it. Many translations at one site, at ://
      Beowulf as a name may mean bee-wolf, or bear, see :// (search for Beowulf). Yes! Back to the Widing bear story. Norse and bears: a recurrent topic, and a stretch to connect with anything much.
      • Wid and woods:  Linguistics. The Anglo Saxon wipig or wibig (think of that middle letter in font as a b, with the tail continuing down, making also a p with a b on top - we will call the letter a bip) is an Anglo Saxon name for tree or shrub, see ://  There is also a plant or a flower, wi bip obend, or wi bip owinde.  Pay for this site (we didn't) to get an Old English Dictionary, at ://
      • Wid and wide.  In addition to wood or forest, Norse uses wid for something that means a descriptive measure, wide: see at page 103:  Find the widsse, or wide sea? Norway Skager Rack?
      "Ohthere made two voyages. Sailing first northward along the western 
      coast of Norway, he rounded the North Cape, passed into the White Sea, 
      and entered the Dwina River (an niicel ea) . On his second voyage he 
      sailed southward along the western coast of Norway, entered the Skager 
      Rack (widsse), passed through the Cattegat, and anchored at the Danish 
      port of Haddeby (set Hsejjum), modern Schleswig."
      Aha.  Widse does mean wide, in the sense of "open sea".  Find this navigator, Ohthere, or Orosius, who served Saxon King Alfred (Olde Englande) (is that so?) and his sailings at :// We underestimate the extent of old travelings.

      Do a "find" for the root "wid" at that Old English Grammar site and come up with many words with it. There is a glossary that defines many.  It takes an expert to figure it all out, but we will start stoutly:

      Examples are not consistent with one meaning.  There are widre (farther, more widely, as a comparative to wide),  cwidegiedda (cwidegiedd means word), larcwidum (precept,, instruction), inwid-sorge (means sorrow caused by an enemy), widre gwindan, gilp wide-Geates (the Geats?) gulp here come the wide Geats?  no, gilp- c wide means boasting speech (note that is masculine), hwider means whither.

      Only those two in the list, widre and hwider connect to wide, or some description of size, extent.

      Then go on to wid in constructing conjunctions, adverbs, etc.

      Conclusion:  The Wid word-root did have legs. It became words meaning wide, among other meanings (the fun part here is that King Inge of Sweden in his battles with the Norse was known as a wide, bottomy person),  Some connection with wood (or woods, as in the reference to trees and shrubs in the plants names) remains. The wid makes sense in our continuing use of wide as in far and wide, a measurement that way.

      Back to Big King Inge who took a long time to get on his horse. Far more fun.

      Wid as Saxon, Wid as Anglo-Saxon, Wid as Norse. Could be worse.

      Anglo-Saxon wid.
      Add that to the Saxon wid.
      And the Norse wid.
      What's wrong wid dat?

      II.  Did the Wid travel with the Saxons in their Diaspora, Forced Resettlements,
      into other parts of Germany --  Prussia, Scandinavia, even Romania

      Meet Johannes Widingh, 1376 Will, Hamburg -is the H for Hof or Farm?
      And Sven Widingh, Sweden 1700's - farm
      And Olaf Widing,  Sweden 1800's - farm

      If the "h" at the end of Widing in Widingh stood for "hof" - that means a variety of dignified things:  farm, court including holding court, courtyard, inn. See://  Also a city in Bavaria, see ://  Hof family - crest does mean court, see

      Drop the "H" when the designation is no longer needed, and you have Widing with no H.  Is that so? Ten points for effort. Widinghof.

      Sunday, July 25, 2010

      Surname, Widing - King Inge. Is Widing Now the Name Bestowed: from Wid the Wood; Plus Inge the King

      King Inge of Sweden in 1000 AD

      Is Inge the King,
      that rewarded the Knave,
      that killed the Bear,
      that Attacked the King, 
      and bestowed the name of Widing?

      Roots of Widing
      The Widinga Saga
      King Inge

      Curiosity about roots:  Searching for NG or ING in the name Widing, the name bestowed (according to family tall tale) upon the fellow who saved the king's life in an old hunt, so they say.  We found us a King.  Stop there.

      King Inge:  He was King of Sweden 1079-1084 (co with another); and King of Gothenland 1084-1088; and King of Sweden 1088-1105. Story so far:
      • Widings of this family twig harbor a tale about some poor knave who managed to save the King who was attacked by a bear during a hunt in the woods.  In gratitude, the King gave him the name "Widing".  Spellings change, particularly if this was an oral tradition to begin with, or runes, or other linguisic gymnastics and memory problems intervened over a thousand years. 
      • We have considered the possibility that the name came from versions of Widukind, the Saxon King whose people, loosely federated tribes apparently, fought Charlemagne and his structured militants for 30 years before being conquered.  Even after that, there was not a consistent peace, and Widukind and allies ducked frequently into friendly Denmark; the boundaries of Norway, Sweden and Denmark and German areas fluctuated. Was he our King in the woods?
      Here is the next possibility:

      1.  Name elements of Wid and Ing again, but looking closer at each . Or, instead of Wid / Ing, try Wi (small exercise machine?) / and Ding (half a bell). DingDong.

      a. Wid - Note that some 92 people in the United States enjoy the distinguished first name, Wid. See ://  Where's Wid? There is a map at the site showing where the names live, state by state.  And then

      WID -

      a.  First, we found from earlier rune sites that it is so that the element "wid" is "wood" or "woods". That may or may not be so, but we start here with that interpretation.

      - ING

      b.  Then, a feasible idea for the Ing in the etymology of this surname is with the 11th Century King Inge, a/k/a Ingi/  Inge has surfaced after a number of wild goose chases on the internet, and appears to be a ruler or co-ruler with his brother, on the Swedish throne or thrones, in about 1080 AD.

      Enter Wikipedia at ://  Dastardly dealings removing our King from the throne, and then Christian zeal and desire to get the throne back leading our King to burn up people in their houses, but Gotland and Ostergotland, and the Hervarar Saga Ok Heibreks may be helpful connections.  He founded the monastery at Vreta (where?).

      He had a nephew, Inge the Younger.

      2.  Sources to check further:
      • Nordisk Familjebok at  :// at page 620; that has to be translated.
      • Introduction to the Saga of Hervor and Heithrek at ://, written down 1325 AD and now in the Royal Library at Copenhagen,
      • and the Saga itself -- there is the information Wikipedia uses, do a search for Ingi. See the King at pages 141-42. And in English. There is no reference to our poor fellow and the hunt, however. 
      • The Northvegr Center at ://
      • Magnus Barefoot's Saga, at  ://  
      3.  This fits the tale of the Bear.

      That Magnus Barefoot's Saga specifically mentions Varmaland (now Varmland) in Sweden where there are lots of Widings now, aha, see section 13 of Magnus Barefoot's Saga.  The Swedish King Inge there, had quarreled with another King, the Norwegian King Magnus, about land rights.
      • Enter the Wids from the Woods?  Ah, conjecture.  The Saga says, however, that there were also forest-dwellers and forest-settlements in the area, and those people's allegiances were not to the Norwegian Magnus until he rampaged about and plundered and burnt in a persuasive way. That is in the same section 13. King Inge returned and whupped Magnus' men, and the forest-men again were loyal to King Inge. Inge was not to be taken lightly. Magnus' Norwegians made up a ditty about the delay in Inge's getting going: apparently he could barely make it to get on the horse.

        "The fat-hipped king, with heavy sides,
             Finds he must mount before he rides." 
        There was a bloody battle, and Magnus claimed victory, then there was a meeting of three kings, from Norway, Sweden and Denmark; and a treaty about boundaries each would accept, and an exchange of guarantees including Inge's daughter to marry Magnus.  Inge is said to be large, stout and dignified, and Magnus gallant and brisk, and the third king, Danish King Eirik, the handsomest.  All were well-spoken. And so they parted. 
      Conjecture rules.
      Now:  there is also a King Inga of Nidaros, and is that Norway?

      See old history, The World's Story in Fourteen Volumes, with illustrations; Volume VIII,  about the unification of Norway, Sweden and Denmark, then their separations again, medieval and renaissance, see p 90 at ://

      Tuesday, July 6, 2010

      Surname, Widing - Widukind. Widing Surname. What Roots. Delving into Saxon King Widukind

       Surnames - 
      Roots in Imagination;
      And Some History

      Widukind, Which and Whose art thou? 

      The Widinga Saga

      Wid+ing=Widing. Or not?

      For many surnames, there is an easy root.  The name is an occupation, for example.  For others, the name reflects an old language word or legend-real person, still found in place names, sagas, with all the spellings changing over centuries, given evolving written languages, migrations, and whim.

      "Widing" fits none of those easy roots so far.  Yet, the name is not uncommon. On imagination, is it related to the name of the heroic Saxon leader, who opposed Charlemagne in the Saxon Wars in the 9th Century, one Widduken, Widdikind, Widdukind, Wittiken, etc. Why not follow that thought.

      There are are thousands of Widings currently in the United States (a relative ordered the full list at one point); and who knows how many still in Sweden, including a famous hockey player, Daniel Widing - do a search. So, what is the name?  Many from an area called Varmland, many emigrating through Goteborg on the western coast, but still, where did the name come from.
      • Try this. A Widdikind. Widukin. Widukind. Some such. Saxon ruler, migrations of Saxons out of the way of Charlemagne. Charlemagnitude at work. The campaigns of a larger-than-life figure in European history, and the escape of some Saxons to Scandinavia. With the name.  Wid - "wood".  Then the "kind" perhaps from kinder, child, child of the wood?
      • The name even bestowed and creating a relationship, in the old custom of Vikings; but not a Swedish King - a Saxon. 
      • There was a Widukind von Enger in Old Saxony, about 735-807 -- Charlemagne's era. See this claim at
        Of all this claims of descent from Widukind von Enger are geograhically premature.  There was no Enger in warrior noble Widukind's time. Enger came later. Is that so? See also ://  His remains are supposed to be there, see ://, but what was there at the time so he could be deemed von Enger.

      From Widukind von Enger to Widing over a thousand years of telescoping linguistics, applying alphabets. Why not. Doesn't matter, but is interesting. The first stop, after Saxony, seems to be Denmark:  where Widukind fled on several occasions when the battlefields against Charlemagne got too hot. Do a search for Widing Denmark and find the name. The roots may not be so unknown. See the "unknown" cop-out at ://

      1.  The Saxon Wars.  In the time of Charlemagne, King Charles (who later was The Charlemagne, and first Holy Roman Emperor) fought the Saxons to the north and northwest of  Europe, to subdue them under his rule and to convert them, and they - fierce fellows - would have none of it.  They would give way, promise to be good, then re-attack - and re-attack. See the account of the struggle and "perfidy" of the Saxons who would never give up, by Charlemagne's own scribe-secretary, Einhard, at p://; read the Latin and scroll around at ://  Einhard does not mention the specific name, Widdekind, yet, however.

      So Charlemagne and the Saxons fought.  And fought. And fought. At least thirty years they fought. See:// Danes also considered Saxon and Frisian lands theirs at some points, so there must have been much back and forth of people and names.

      2.  Finally Charlemagne prevailed, slaughtered thousands of captured Saxons who had resisted, used poor folks' food stores to support his armies, worsening famines, burning towns, moving entire populations around to break up old allegiances and forge through forced resettlements a new identity as part of the larger European whole, etc. See ://  Saxons during the wars were also pushed back and back, and many went to Scandinavia.

      The leader of the Saxons finally capitulated, and Charlemagne magnanimously did not humiliate him, but received him with the respect due a formidable opponent.  Charlemagne still demanded, however, in addition to allegiance, that the Saxon convert to the Christianity in its shape of the time (militant, with a hierarchy entrenching, and the Roman Church itself taking land and property almost at will).  The Saxon Ruler nominally did. Note that the Eastern Christian Church, the Orthodox, had already branched off. Or had it?  Have to check.  The Pope was in Constantinople at the time, not Rome, is that so? So maybe the split had not happened yet.

      3.  The Saxon ruler was Widdikind.  Widukind. Wittikind. Widukind. His father was Warnechin (think "Warner" now?).  One site even calls Widukind the first Duke of Saxony, a little pretentious if the Saxons in Germany were a collection of rough tribes then, and not a province with a hierarchical nobility structure.  The area is the old Westphalia, the Old Empire, Das Alte Reich,  before Charlemagne, see ://, and he is said to have been a noble there, see the 1911 Encyclopedia site.

      The father of the Widukind von Engern in the sitge is also Warnechin, last name von Engern. So that claimed descendant says.
      • Longstanding source material:  The 1912 Catholic Encyclopedia.  See Widukind:
      "Saxon leader, and one of the heads of the Westphalian nobility. He was the moving spirit in the struggles of the Saxons for their independence and heathen faith". See ://

      The site says that in 777 our Widukind fled -- into Denmark. Then, with Charlemagne back in Spain going against the Saracens, Widukind returned to Saxony and it was vengeance time. Insurrection.  Much venting against the church, and when Charlemagne was on his way back (angry!), Widukind was known to be the rallying person.  Then came Charlemagne's slaughter of the Saxons, the thousands, and that solidified Saxon spirit. Widukind again fled to Denmark for safety. Ultimately, however, Charlemagne prevailed (the 30 years of warfare exhausted everyone), and Widukind gave allegiance finally, and was baptized.  He is said to be buried at Enger, near Herford.  The site finds little reliable about him after the baptism: he became a heroic hero of legend, even a saint, a great builder of churches. His gravestone is from the 12th Century, not the 8th or 9th. A reliquary is said to be 9th or 10th, however.Enger did not exist in Widukind's day. That from

      We need an opera here:  Widukind in Denmark. And a children's book:  Widukind: The King Who Wouldn't Give Up.

      • Jean Bodel, 1165-1210, Troubadour, Song of the Saxons, La Chanson des Saisnes, or La Chanson de Saisine, -- we are trying to find one in English.  Do a search and French. Sigh deeply:  " *** Que mais ceste ne autre ait de m'amor saisine ... "
      Bodel, member of Brotherhood of Jugglers, and the Burghers of Arras (The burghers as in Rodin's sculpture? No, those were Calais) authored various epics, narratives, had leprosy but still prepared to go on the 4th Crusade, scroll down to Bodel at ://

      Here is Vol II in French:  La Chanson des Saxons (Saxons? Why use that Germanic form?) at

      See page 64, in the old French:  Keep looking for Saisne, for the Saxon parts.

      " *** Et li Saisne esperonent aval par mi la plaine
      Ansamble on joste' prince at duc et domain. ***"
      • Meet Guiteckin  - is that an old French spelling for Widukind? See it at the Karlamagnus Saga, The Saga of Charlemagne and his Heroes, by Constance B. Hieatt, Part V, Guitalin the Saxon. How is anybody supposed to research anything when everybody's spelling goes with the linguistics and best efforts of the day.  Now we have to start over with Guitalin. Or Guiteckin.   This book compares various versions of the Charlemagne sagas, and there are several, by different authors, emphasizing different things, etc.  The name also appears as Guiteclin.  And Vitakind. See page 6 for that.
      • The War of the Saxons is supposed to be at Part I, Chapters 46-47 of the Karlamagnus Saga by Constance B. Hieatt.  See page 6.  The Vitakind spelling occurs apparently mostly in the Volume I? Where is that? This gets confusing.  Is the Google book both volumes?? As you read, remember that   
      • That Part V Chapter I about Guitalin (not spelled Vitakind) begins on page 16, Guitalin the Saxon, at Widukind gave allegiance for a time, and was baptized, as we understand it; then took off after Charlemagne again. In the Hieatt book, he ultimately is imprisoned and dies. Synopsis page 3 at ://
      • It goes on and on, no wonder with 30 years of warfare.  Introduction is at pages 6-13; and a Synopsis at pages 1-5. We'll go there.

      4.  Are you still with us? We have found another Widukind from Saxony, same era, died in 973, but this one was a Benedictine monk and a chronicler, see ://  His monastery was at Corvey in Westphalia, Widukind the Chronicler.  One and the same Widukind? The warrior did not die in prison but his conversion "took" and he dedicated himself, etc.  And was an educated man?    Look up Early Saxon Leaders, Family of Widukind, at ://  It looks like the name Widukind and family thereof was a name of power for two centuries, and Widuchindus rebellis - the one leading all the rebellions against King Charles (Charlemagne).  Wikipedia is always interesting.  See ://

      Need to look up the Royal Frankish Annals just because it is interesting, but the point, in this Sweden Road Ways, is that Widukind's Saxons went often to Denmark during their campaigns, Saxon populations were pushed into the Netherlands as well as migrated there, and Widing ergo ubiquitus est. But Widukind and wife, Geva, sister of Sigurd, had only one child, a son, Wichbert.  A prolific one.

      The chronicler Widukind does seem to be different. See site.  And his Res Gestae Saxonicae. Are Widings from him? Monks in those days went cloistered as adults, so perhaps.  And then oft enjoyed earth's pleasures.  But how would the Widing Thanksgiving Legend of some poor soul saving the King and being rewarded with a Name, fit with a scribe.  Wikipedia on Widukind of Corvey, the Historian, at; and the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica at ://

      To be continued:  Widing in the 18th-21st Centuries, harking back in some imaginative or perhaps real (now way to know) Widukind, Vitakind.  Whichever is not the point. Most likely so far:  either no connection at all, and Widing remains with its unknown root; or a telescoping of a common name centuries ago; or an original bestowing of an honor name; a relationship; and people down that line and others who just sought to honor Vitakind's-Widukind's memory, or tap into his prowess by taking the name, whatever.

      Perhaps. People seeking noble connections with Widdukind are said to have been unsuccessful, however (is that so?  how about Mr. Geni.Com above?), and they must have applied resources; so any connection between our name and that great one is emulatory. Fine. Why not.

      Can you add to our non-knowledge, you Widings out there? We say Widing as in hiding.  Do others say Veeding. Potato potahto.  No reason for research always to be serious.  Recreational research works.